can we say something positive please?

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miriam

can we say something positive please?

Lead

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Posts: 1

(06/21/09 10:13 AM)

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Hi,
I feel like a misfit - an evangelical christian in a catholic church. I have many close friends in the catholic church, my kids are baptized and attend a warm loving RC school and I have been active in the church for quite some time. I have always loved the catholic social teaching. Although it is easy to bash the church wrt the recent abuse in Ireland (my country) I believe that we must not forget that much good has been done and is being done by and on behalf of the RC church. I am engaged in a fund raising event for Cafod and will continue with this.

That said, I appreciate that much of the RC church's teaching is completely incompatible with the scriptures. For example, I believe that I am a sinner and Jesus died at Calvary for me. I am saved through grace alone and no sacrament, good work nor indulgence will make any difference. I have never prayed to saints or Mary and view her simply as an obedient follower of God who very probably had several other children after Jesus. I have no time for priestly heirarchy, the pope or saying prayers for the dead. Likewise I have no time for the structured liturgy that tells me what to pray and does not feel Spirit-led.

I no longer receieve communion at Mass, but have not yet found a new spiritual home. (I am looking in to this). I do not feel any bitterness toward the church as my husband and both our families are practising catholics. I have friends, both lay and priests/ members of the religious who I would consider to have an active engagement with Jesus. I would just like to comment that there appears to be rather a lot of vitriol on this website towards the RC church from those who belong to the reformed churches. Perhaps we could pray for another reformation from within and try to show Christian love and charity whilst recognising that the catholic church has over time lost touch with her biblical roots?

Miriam

Sid2

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Posts: 20550

(06/21/09 02:19 PM)

Inner Guard

miriam wrote:
I appreciate that much of the RC church's teaching is completely incompatible with the scriptures. For example, I believe that I am a sinner and Jesus died at Calvary for me. I am saved through grace alone and no sacrament, good work nor indulgence will make any difference. I have never prayed to saints or Mary and view her simply as an obedient follower of God who very probably had several other children after Jesus. I have no time for priestly heirarchy, the pope or saying prayers for the dead. Likewise I have no time for the structured liturgy that tells me what to pray and does not feel Spirit-led.

miriam:

Welcome to ExCatholic!

Sounds like you realize that there are serious problems with Catholic theology and practice, I knew of the problems for years before I finally had to leave.

. . . and you will leave eventually once you tire of feeling like a hypocrite. . . I know, I did.

miriam wrote:
I would just like to comment that there appears to be rather a lot of vitriol on this website towards the RC church from those who belong to the reformed churches. Perhaps we could pray for another reformation from within and try to show Christian love and charity whilst recognising that the catholic church has over time lost touch with her biblical roots?

B-16 can tell the Christian denominations that they aren't even churches in the proper sense and that they are lacking and deficient. . . looking at the sordid state of affairs in the RCC, isn't his tossing stones a little uncalled for?

The almost 500 years since the Reformation clearly demonstrate that the RCC is incapable of meaningful change.

I pray that the Holy Spirit convince you that the RCC doesn't begin to live up to it's claims.

I would rather be honestly blunt than diplomatically untruthful.

Gods Trombone

Welcome Miriam!

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Posts: 4502

(06/22/09 10:21 AM)

I understand you noticing the tenor of some of the posts here on "Ex-Catholic And Saved by Grace." I would agree that
we could use some "positive" qualities from time to time. However, we need to recognize that we are each coming from a
different place and situation in our individual lives and that will have an effect on what we post at the moment. Certainly, the
falsehoods of RCism do need to be exposed, and sometimes it may seem a bit "pointed" when we do so.

I share life with a staunch, traditional Catholic (my bride) so I have first hand knowledge in this area. Please stick around and
chat with us here about where "you are coming from." (American slang phrase there.)

Oasis2

[-]

Posts: 861

(07/03/09 06:08 AM)

Administrator

Welcome miriam!

Consider this your internet Christian fellowship home if you'd like.
You said,
"Perhaps we could pray for another reformation from within and try to show Christian love and charity whilst recognising that the catholic church has over time lost touch with her biblical roots?"

Of course prayer should always be used to ask God to open the eyes of those we believe to be Scripturally wrong.
IMHO the Catholic church lost it's Biblical bearings within a couple of hundred years after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Sometimes passion for Scriptural convictions makes for "hot" computer keys. LOL
In years past I've gotten into some very tough debates that sometimes got out of control...human shortcoming...
Anymore I try to keep my discussions friendly and if whoever I'm chatting with gets nasty?...I just pick up my ego on the way out the door of that discussion. LOL

***miriam, would you mind me asking a couple of questions?
-Why would you continue to support a manmade religion you know to be false, as you yourself have stated?
-What origins of the Catholic church do you believe to be Scriptural?

There are no wrong answers. I'm just very curious.
I look forward to visiting with you about these things.

In Christ,
Kab

Everyone should have cats and drink coffee.
Cats remind us of how inferior we are to them
and
Drinking coffee reminds us that at least we have opposable thumbs.

MaricoG

[-]

Posts: 1256

(07/04/09 11:33 PM)

Administrator

Welcome Miriam...

I hope you come back here to talk and make friends. I also am an ex-Catholic saved by grace.

This is a good place, with fun, interesting and knowledgeable people.

Take off your shoes and make yourself at home. :-)

"The purpose of my life is to worship God with all my heart, model the character of my Saviour Jesus Christ,
be a minister of His grace, a messenger of His word, and a magnifier of His glory."

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Love,
Mari

MaricoG

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Posts: 1257

(07/04/09 11:35 PM)

Administrator

Forgot to subscribe...sheesh

"The purpose of my life is to worship God with all my heart, model the character of my Saviour Jesus Christ,
be a minister of His grace, a messenger of His word, and a magnifier of His glory."

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Love,
Mari

miriam

[-]

Posts: 2

(07/11/09 02:53 PM)

Hi Sid2, Kab et al.,
I have not been to mass for over a month and to be honest I can't really bear the thought of darkening the door again. As I think I mentioned earlier I was very involved in my local parish; catechesis, leading the music group, etc, so I imagine that my absence has been noted. For a year I prayed with a catholic charismatic group, but every time anyone mentioned Mary, saints or the pope I would inwardly cringe. Also I'm not entirely sure about praying in tongues if there is no-one to interpret but that's another topic for another post maybe......

You asked which origins of the RC church are scriptural, well I think that the Nicene creed is essentially scriptural, is it not? But, yes so much has been added on over the years, so that it does not feel Christ-centered, which is where I need to be. So I have left. I will soon probably be excommunicated because I will have to have a frank discussion with my priest. Sadly he thinks I'm a devout catholic! In fact I have found and accepted Jesus as my saviour through reading my NIV bible, but the closer I got to Him, the further I have gone from the teaching of the Church. I have been in fellowship with a local evangelical church for a few weeks, but it's a tricky business seeing where this will lead as my husband and kids are catholic and we are all part of a (very caring) catholic school community. I am just praying for the Lord's guidance and resting in His grace.

Just wondering......has anyone here been ex-communicated?!

Thanks, and prayers would be appreciated,

Miriam

Oasis2

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Posts: 911

(07/11/09 04:41 PM)

Administrator

Miriam said,
"Just wondering......has anyone here been ex-communicated?!"

You mean from family?...LOL
I was born and raised in the Church of Christ religion which shares some things in common with the Catholic religion.

Miriam said,
"Also I'm not entirely sure about praying in tongues if there is no-one to interpret but that's another topic for another post maybe......"

Actually the subject of spiritual gifts is currently being discussed on another board and we just started the subject of speaking in tongues. I'll use that post to start one on tongues here.

Miriam said,
"You asked which origins of the RC church are scriptural, well I think that the Nicene creed is essentially scriptural, is it not? But, yes so much has been added on over the years, so that it does not feel Christ-centered, which is where I need to be."

There are some ex-Catholics here better versed on this subject than me, but I don't have a problem with the statement made in 325AD.
I don't agree with the one from 381AD.
Here's a side by side comparison:

First Council of Nicea (325)	First Council of Constantinople (381)
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.	We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;	And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];	by whom all things were made;
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;	who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;	he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.	from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
	whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost.	And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
	In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'-they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

Everyone should have cats and drink coffee.
Cats remind us of how inferior we are to them
and
Drinking coffee reminds us that at least we have opposable thumbs.

MaricoG

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Posts: 1303

(07/11/09 06:17 PM)

Administrator

I think I must be et al....LOL

I am glad you came back Miriam. :-)

Kab, I actually like the second one better...if you leave off the last stanza! lol As we know, baptism for the remission of sins was only for the Jews, and Peter was talking to the Jews at Pentecost, not to the Body of Christ, which at that time, was still unknown.

Miriam, after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7) and the rejection by Israel of the risen Jesus Christ, as well as having crucified the lowly Jesus Christ almost a year earlier...the Lord finally turned away from Israel, for a time, and raised up another apostle, Paul (Acts 9:4), not one of the 12 (Acts 1:26), to reveal the mystery (Romans 11:25) that had been hid in God from the beginning of the world (Ephesians 3:9) to the Gentiles, to Kings and to the children of Israel (Acts 9:15).

Paul tells us about the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27) and reveals the mystery of the gospel of the grace of God to the world (Acts 20:24). This is the message of God that believers (Acts 16:31), new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17), members of the body of Christ (1Corinthians 12:27), believe and follow today for salvation.

This was the most wonderful thing in all the world...when I left the Catholic religion, and found salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

As for speaking in tongues and such...we believe they are not for today...and again, it was a sign for the Jews, because without signs, they would not believe. (John 4:48) I was also involved with Charismatic/Pentecostal for a time as well...it is not unusual for Catholics, and particularily ex-Catholics as most are used to "signs and wonders" via the 'miracles' of the Catholic Mary and Saints....it seems quite familiar to Catholics, so often they are right at home with this.

I sure hope you stick around...it couldl be fun and interesting. Regardless, remember one thing. Conversation is great, but without the base of the word of God to show you the truth, there is no truth at all, it is just from men. I was tired of men...I looked for God in His word, and found Him.
Always compare what someone says with the word of God, and study to show yourself a workman who does not need to be ashamed. :-)

"The purpose of my life is to worship God with all my heart, model the character of my Saviour Jesus Christ,
be a minister of His grace, a messenger of His word, and a magnifier of His glory."

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Love,
Mari

Oasis2

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Posts: 918

(07/11/09 06:46 PM)

Administrator

Excellent post, Mari.

This is the part of the second one I don't like:

"In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

ybiC,
Kab

Everyone should have cats and drink coffee.
Cats remind us of how inferior we are to them
and
Drinking coffee reminds us that at least we have opposable thumbs.

MaricoG

[-]

Posts: 1307

(07/11/09 07:54 PM)

Administrator

Amen Kab! That is the part we can do without! The baptism for the remission of sins...if that were true for us today, why on earth would the apostle Paul have said under the guidance of the Holy Spirit...

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

And what was the gospel he was sent to preach? Not baptism for the remission of sins, but:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

"The purpose of my life is to worship God with all my heart, model the character of my Saviour Jesus Christ,
be a minister of His grace, a messenger of His word, and a magnifier of His glory."

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Love,
Mari

Gods Trombone

[-]

Posts: 4520

(07/12/09 07:18 AM)

Oasis2 wrote:
Excellent post, Mari.

This is the part of the second one I don't like:

"In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

ybiC,
Kab

Kab beat me to it! I was going to say the same about your post Mari! As you all may know, my dear wife is still active as a
Catholic and this is the first Sunday in weeks she has been well enough to attend mass since the fracture of her back. I don't want
er to drive there by herself, so I go with her. It is an "odd experience" to attend mass and NOT participate as a Catholic, but I
do it for her sake. I thank God she is able to try and go today. The pain is still with her and we are waiting to see if anything can be
done to relieve it, or if it will go away.

Very nice to see Miriam back and read the good discussion. See you later!

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil. 1:27).

Gods Trombone

One of the readings today at mass

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Posts: 4523

(07/12/09 03:17 PM)

The readings at mass (done by the lector or "reader") are selected for the whole year in advance by a "liturgical authority"
somewhere. I had to marvel when one of the readings today was the following:

"Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

I remember that at one time, when I was still Catholic, I could listen to that being read and see no apparent problem squaring it with the totality of Catholic doctrine. But now, since I know what it means, I see such contradiction that It is hard to imagine how I didn't see it before. Like so many other things, one has to know about the "small print", those rules in RCism that obviate the Word of Truth in the reading today.

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil. 1:27).

Gods Trombone

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Posts: 4524

(07/13/09 08:04 AM)

My quote of the verses is from my King James Version on my PC, and their's is not, but it was similar enough to the KJV to be
startling in the context of a Catholic mass, imo at least.

It may be interesting to open this up for input from all of us as to the contradictions we see when comparing with Catholic teaching and doctrine.

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil. 1:27).

Oasis2

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Posts: 928

(07/13/09 05:32 PM)

Administrator

That would be interesting GT. Somebody else will have to start it though. There are several here more informed than me about the Catholic religion.

ybiC,
Kab

Everyone should have cats and drink coffee.
Cats remind us of how inferior we are to them
and
Drinking coffee reminds us that at least we have opposable thumbs.

Gods Trombone

[-]

Posts: 4525

(07/14/09 06:45 AM)

I won't take the thread off-topic but instead I will start another thread. Lot's of interruptions right now, so I'll be back later.

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil. 1:27).

DougErd

[-]

Posts: 460

(07/14/09 10:29 AM)

miriam wrote:
Hi Sid2, Kab et al.,
I have not been to mass for over a month and to be honest I can't really bear the thought of darkening the door again. As I think I mentioned earlier I was very involved in my local parish; catechesis, leading the music group, etc, so I imagine that my absence has been noted. For a year I prayed with a catholic charismatic group, but every time anyone mentioned Mary, saints or the pope I would inwardly cringe. Also I'm not entirely sure about praying in tongues if there is no-one to interpret but that's another topic for another post maybe......

You asked which origins of the RC church are scriptural, well I think that the Nicene creed is essentially scriptural, is it not? But, yes so much has been added on over the years, so that it does not feel Christ-centered, which is where I need to be. So I have left. I will soon probably be excommunicated because I will have to have a frank discussion with my priest. Sadly he thinks I'm a devout catholic! In fact I have found and accepted Jesus as my saviour through reading my NIV bible, but the closer I got to Him, the further I have gone from the teaching of the Church. I have been in fellowship with a local evangelical church for a few weeks, but it's a tricky business seeing where this will lead as my husband and kids are catholic and we are all part of a (very caring) catholic school community. I am just praying for the Lord's guidance and resting in His grace.

Just wondering......has anyone here been ex-communicated?!

Thanks, and prayers would be appreciated,

Miriam

Hi Miriam,

I understand where you are coming from. Our family was in a similar situation in 2005.

During this time:

Our son just had his first communion and first reconciliation.
We attended mass every Sunday and often on Friday morning.
Our children were in CCD (we pulled our kids out of the parish school a year earlier and were being home-schooled) and active in sports programs sponsored by the parish.
We ran a Bible study at the parish.
I was serving on parish council.
Serving on several committees at the parish (Building and Grounds, Worship, and Festival)
Ran a sports ministry through basketball games in the school gym for young adults.

During this time I was posting on Christian MB's with my disgust with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Needless to say, some of the Catholics who posted on the same MB were flabbergasted that I would publicly state such things. So what they did is report me to my parish. I had an official meeting with the Parish Director (whom already had letters typed with my resignation from parish council, disbanding the Bible Study, and Sports ministry) who stated how 'grave' the situation was. He asked me if I believed in Papal infallibility and Transubstantiation. I replied 'no' to both questions. Didn't make any excuses nor defense. All I stated when the meeting was over, is "I was mistaken in thinking the center of the Catholic Church was Jesus", which his reply, which was more telling "Yes, but the core of Church teaching you denied..." confirming that the Catholic Church isn't centered on Jesus Christ. It was an eerie feeling knowing that just a few centuries earlier, I would have been put to death by the Catholic Church as a 'heretic' for following Jesus. So, although I don't have any 'official' ex-communication letter from the Catholic Church, they have this letter filed at the parish and at the diocese.

My wife and I spent a few days in prayer and asked God to lead us where He wanted us, and He led us to a great community of followers of Jesus Christ to continue our growth in the Gospel. Our kids have jumped eagerly right in and now are quite involved in our church and in several sports and dance programs in the area.

Through this whole episode, it is important to all keep your focus on Jesus Christ and trusting the will of God. If I didn't live though it, I would not have believed it. It gave me a personal first hand view the Catholic Church is not the Church with any relation to Jesus Christ.

It isn't often to see someone who appears to be on the same road that God led my family on. My prayers are with you and are confident that God will lead you to bigger and better things to serve Him, like He has done with our family.

If you have any further questions to what to expect, feel free to ask.

Doug

Last Edited By: DougErd 07/14/09 10:34 AM. Edited 1 times.

Oasis2

[-]

Posts: 935

(07/14/09 06:30 PM)

Administrator

GT said,
"I won't take the thread off-topic but instead I will start another thread. Lot's of interruptions right now, so I'll be back later."

Sounds great GT. Please give the Grace board members a shout when you start the thread.

ybiC,
Kab

Everyone should have cats and drink coffee.
Cats remind us of how inferior we are to them
and
Drinking coffee reminds us that at least we have opposable thumbs.

Gods Trombone

[-]

Posts: 4526

(07/15/09 08:52 AM)

Sure thing Kab, and Doug- very interesting post there!

Though I have considered myself "ex-catholic" since about '82, I have never had any sort of "excommunication."

When you were asked if you believed in "Pope and transubstantiation" I agree it was a telling indication of where
RCism denies a focus on Christ Himself. :amen
Great post!

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil. 1:27).

MaricoG

[-]

Posts: 1313

(07/15/09 02:06 PM)

Administrator

I was told by our priest that I was excommunicated....but never received a letter or official notification, either....

"The purpose of my life is to worship God with all my heart, model the character of my Saviour Jesus Christ,
be a minister of His grace, a messenger of His word, and a magnifier of His glory."

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Love,
Mari

Gods Trombone

[-]

Posts: 4531

(07/16/09 07:34 AM)

Oasis2 wrote:

GT said,
"I won't take the thread off-topic but instead I will start another thread. Lot's of interruptions right now, so I'll be back later."

Sounds great GT. Please give the Grace board members a shout when you start the thread.

ybiC,
Kab

With my dear wife having the severe pain and my daughter recovering from surgery, things are quite "busy" right now. I would like to have more time to give to posting than I have. I will probably post the discussion of Ephesians and the Catholic Church on the Dialog and Discussion forum.

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil. 1:27).

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can we say something positive please?

can we say something positive please?

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